Curse

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

You are REALLY missing the point.

1. Power Block is an elite, we know it totally obliterates a caster
2. Your suppose to interrupt them while the rest of the team help kill them, not try to make a skillset to kill them yourself, and who uses E-Burn... the damage is pretty bad in comparison to just casting Backfire on them and just interrupting Area (since it totally outdoes Backfires damage).
3. A ranger could say the same thing to the mesmer.

Those monks are suppose to be your teams first target you know, plus they sometimes don't even start casting till they have low health.

And yes, these high spammable skills like Flare or Consume Corpse? Flare... if its the last 1 standing why not. Consume Corpse, very nice to stop them teleporting randomly, specially if you need the corpse. In that situation a Distracting Shot is probably better, but it makes little difference.

Are you talking about PvP? You losing 5 and them losing 0 really isn't much different from you losing 10 them losing 5. Besides, Power Leak makes them lose 26.

I hope you don't do that in PvE. Only a completely idiot brings QZ with them to a normal PvE group. If you use that every single caster in the group WILL have you hung, drawn and quartered for depleting there energy. No-one appreciates a 30% extra cost on spells just so you can interrupt slightly more often. Not like this spirit is up for long anyway unles you've maxed out Wilderness Survival, so you do little damage on your interrupts anyway, that and people love to go Spirit hunting these days, be it PvP or PvE. But while you brought it up. If there happens to be a mesmer in that group. MoR + QZ = 1.75seconds recharge, game set and match.

If i'm not mistake, Power LEECH restores energy back to you, not them.

Themis · Jun 01, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Eaimirth, you shouldn't treat skills individually, look :

- you're in GvG, or HA (for instance).
- you have a condition-heavy build : the oponnents' answer will be Martyr.
- you take just one skill with you : Power Return. Just spot the Martyr bearer and your opponents' strategy is ruined. If you take PB it wil work only half of the time. Oh, of course you could take a dedicated R with 3 skills but... why bother ? PR does the work and it takes just 1 slot (not even an elite) out of your team's 64 slots.

There's no flawless strategy, there's only a strategy<counter strategy<counter-counter strategy and so on (like the example above). And I can find easily at least half a dozen of counter strategies where PR can be used. Not as the best skill on its own on a skill bar : simply as one of the possible best ingredient to a TEAM strategy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Fundamentally the skill is flawed. You will only use it when all your other interrupts are recharging;

I find NOTHING in your post (or your previous ones) that justifies why Power Return "is flawed" or why should you "only use it when all your other interrupts are recharging". You simply compare spell characteristics individually. Energy lost <-> energy damage. This is more a shutdown skill, than an interrupt one. It's irrelevant to measure it in terms of damage dealing. Think about BO : can you measure it like that ?

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 01, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Leech yep
Power Return no
QZ is only needed for the jump; one cast only, then the infini loop begins. Any jump skill will work.

MoR+QZ will make it the fastest...but if you are going to spam the hell out of an interrupt I would use power spike lol.

I ment theoretically the skill is flawed; it is the last interrupt you will want to use, but due to its recharge it is the interrupt you are supposed to use the most.

bushe · Jun 01, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

the point is not "to only use it when your other interupts are recharging" as seems to be the by and large claim here, the point is to only use one interupt because it will recharge quickly and is linked to fast casting so I can just tack it onto a build that has nothing to do with interupts. Then when you have the opportunity to interupt that crucial spell you have an interupt that is probably ready to use and only requires one skill slot and 0 attribute points to be effective.

Sab · Jun 01, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushe

the point is not "to only use it when your other interupts are recharging" as seems to be the by and large claim here, the point is to only use one interupt because it will recharge quickly and is linked to fast casting so I can just tack it onto a build that has nothing to do with interupts. Then when you have the opportunity to interupt that crucial spell you have an interupt that is probably ready to use and only requires one skill slot and 0 attribute points to be effective.

Exactly.

Yes, Power Return has the "worst" side effect out of all the interrupts - returning energy back to your opponent, as opposed to taking it away, or causing damage or disabling key skills. This brings me back to a previous point I made - that in some situations, interrupting a skill is all that matters, and any side effects caused by the interrupt is just a bonus. In those cases, Power Return is the best interrupt.

Evilsod · Jun 02, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Leech yep
Power Return no
QZ is only needed for the jump; one cast only, then the infini loop begins. Any jump skill will work.

MoR+QZ will make it the fastest...but if you are going to spam the hell out of an interrupt I would use power spike lol.

I ment theoretically the skill is flawed; it is the last interrupt you will want to use, but due to its recharge it is the interrupt you are supposed to use the most.

Until you go below 50% health, then it rather abrputly stops. And even then you need to be running at least 13 or 14 Wilderness Survival, as an interrupter, who the hell uses that much? For a start you COULD just use Concussion Shot and leave the interruptions to any normal attack. Not only would it stop you wasting half a build but you get the same effect for probably alot less energy.

But even then been able to use MoR and QZ would mean you'd be using about 10 energy every second. So Power Spike costing double the energy but doing 100 damage that ideally your ele/necro/warriors should be making up too.

Let me give you this situation. Your running at a Shadow Monk to interrupt him till his eyes turn blue. What are you gonna do to that Shadow Beast thats casting SS? You have:
Power Spike - 10 Energy 100 damage, that probably wont matter since it spams Consume Corpse all the frigging time
Power Leak - 15 Energy, and a huge waste of it too
Cry of Fustration - 15 Energy, i think i'll save this for Healing Signet tbh
Power Draom - 5 Energy, you gain back a load, hardly useful to start with
Power Block - 15 Energy, totally blocks its 2 main skills for 16 seconds
Power Return - 5 Energy, interrupts the skill making it recharge it for 10seconds

My choices would be either of the last 2, why? Well if i Blocked it I can always Power Spike/Drain the healer instead of simply Power Blocking him. I think Return wins this sorta hands down, do i care what happens to the Shadow Beast for at least the next 10 seconds? Mark of Pain hardly causes your team major concern, and as most people are focusing on the Shadow Monk, the 107 damage the Beast just took won't matter to anyone, neither will it gaining a bit of energy since it has Soul Reaping anyway.

The same could be said for the monk when its stuck under a Meteor Shower, its 1 hit from death, do you Power Spike its last attempt to heal, or Power Return it? If it actually benefits from the energy it just gained i'll be amazed.

My point is Return is a situational skill, and in a hell of a lot of situations, its the skill to do the job. Most of them involve situation when interrupting the skill doesn't matter beyond the fact you just stopped it casting.

Like LuxA said too, i can tag it along with an Illusion build quite happily. Hell i could tag it along with a Monk build to sit it next to my Power Drain since i'll always be bringing the odd bit of Fast Casting anywhere i go.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

What to do about the SS? Shatter hex it of course!
Even with its "fast recharge" power spike is only 3 seconds away; and I would use that to kill the nightmare. About the Shadow monk; of course I would spike it, I want it dead asap so it doesn't receive a heal area or WoH from one of his friends.

^_^ How does power return prevent the use of the spell for the next ten seconds? You must be thinking of a different interrupt.

Zui · Jun 02, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Give savage shot a <1/4 fire time and a 0s flight time, the ability to go through walls and recharge in <7 seconds and you'll be right

Savage shot does infact have a 1/4s fire time. For some reason the 'average' time to target seems to be factored into the skills cast time. Too bad time to target depends on distance and bow type... Gotta love poor skill descriptions.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

So true that and the fact that the damage on savage shot is in addition to and not only like in the skill description. Right with ya Zui.

Starfury · Jun 02, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Why is there a drawback to using power return? If you interrupted a spell, they'd have to spend at least 5 energy to cast it. The worst case is that they gain a few points of energy.

Power return is a pure interrupt and has advantage of low energy cost and recharge. Interrupts are always effective on high energy cost or long recharge skills.

It's become a permanent addition to my skill bar in PvE for its reliability on being available in interrupting key spells.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

The draw back is the net loss; they stand at 0 while you fall down 5 energy. All they have to do is simply recast the spell.

Avarre · Jun 02, 2006, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

Savage shot does infact have a 1/4s fire time. For some reason the 'average' time to target seems to be factored into the skills cast time. Too bad time to target depends on distance and bow type... Gotta love poor skill descriptions.

As Eaimirth is so fond of mentioning, interrupts are affected by fast cast, so that's why I mentioned <1/4. True or not, it's what many of his statements are based on.

I don't care if savage meets some. If I did, I would list one. I said if it met all, it would be comparable. It does not. It is evadeable, blockable, and can be stopped by large walls.

Not to worry though, I expect if I ever see you, you'll be wielding a horn bow and using savage shot on your mesmer. That's the main condition everyone has neatly skipped around. It's not a mesmer skill, and it uses a ranger weapon, for which the damage Eaimirth mentions requires ranger stat points. It should not have ever been brought into the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

The draw back is the net loss; they stand at 0 while you fall down 5 energy. All they have to do is simply recast the spell.

At which point all you have to do is simply interrupt it again.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

While you plummet deeper and deeper into a larger net loss...

Avarre · Jun 02, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

I use Power Return on Martyr. I lose 5 energy.
The enemy loses a net of about 4.

Crap, beat by 1. If I keep interrupting their martyr, they'll end up invulnerable.

Except that you make up the energy you spent in 3.8 seconds or so. So you are, in effect, down by 3.8 seconds.

The enemy is down by Martyr's recharge. And when it comes to knocking out a critical skill, that one can be pretty severe if you have a lot of conditions up. The net loss of those conditions being left on is HUGE. For them.

You don't care if the Martyr regens energy. Even if they have max, you can still stop that martyr spell and use your other energy to shut down their other monks. That's one example.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Err...no no no the difference is much larger than that Avarre
You see you lose 5 on the spell; they lose 5 on the spell...
Now assuming you have some insane amount of fast casting...they will only gain 5 energy from power return. So the enamy is at a net loss of 0, or they are gaining energy if we compare it with martyr.

Yet again with its recharge time of 10 seconds we could easily use power spike to accomplish the same thing.

Avarre · Jun 02, 2006, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Bah energy cost used to be 10 on that...

Point still stands. We could indeed use spike, but if you're not interrupting the target, who cares? Use spike on the things that the group is killing.

While the net effect is well and good, remember also that if you focus damage on 1 monk and kill it, and use return on another and give it more energy (which cannot surpass the max level anyway), the first one is still going to die. The net bonus from another doesn't spill over to the first.

Rather than spike whoever is casting, I would use spikes on the targets and returns to slow down everything else, in tandem with other shutdown skills. The target has a form of shutdown on it already, in the case of people hitting it.

LightningHell · Jun 02, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

If they lowered the recharge a bit more (?), I would use it. At its present form, no.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

How are we going to use return on a monk...interrupts are neigh impossible on these guys; sheer luck only; maybe on mantra or inspired, but nothing else is viable. If I was going to interrupt these I would want to use something that would heavily punish them before moving to other targets while slamming the clock on my desk to beep before their recharge is done. Of these skills power leak (assuming you have been watching foci) power spike, etc. would be better choices on the slow recharge energy management skills.

around · Jun 02, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

How are we going to use return on a monk...interrupts are neigh impossible on these guys; sheer luck only; maybe on mantra or inspired, but nothing else is viable..

Migraine/Arcane Conundrum/Stolen Speed/Dazed.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 02, 2006, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Migraine/Arcane Conundrum/Stolen Speed/Dazed.

CoP/CoP/CoP/CoP